(1) The state of Britain.

I agree Britain has serious social problems. (And BTW, I don’t agree with the Tory slogan that says we have to mend our “broken society”, it’s badly damaged in parts but a good measure is healthy and achieving good things.)

Islam is not the answer.

Tariq Ramadan on Guardian Cif offers Islam (his cue is the MPs’ expenses scandal) in his post last week “Islam’s role in an ethical society” http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/feb/23/ethics-citizenship-islam

His offer has been met with near universal disapproval and disbelief. Of the 4359 votes given to the first 50 comments (there were 281 comments in all) on his post, 4225 (97 percent) disagee with him.

The most popular critical theme is the fact that Islam has not done much good in Muslim majority countries in any part of the world.

Two comments drive home this theme:

“I lived for a while in Jakarta, and I can assure you, in this, the most populous Muslim country in the world, there is more corruption than you can point a stick at.” And:

“The only conclusion I can draw is that it [Ramadan’s post] is a plea to western societies to make a success of Islam its own followers have failed to realise. The problems Ramadan mentions that will be magically cured by Islam are eclipsed by far bigger and more appalling issues prevalent in Islam-majority countries that do indeed follow Islam.”

No doubt you will claim that this overwhelming rebuff of Mr Ramadan’s offer is all due to the Islamophobes who frequent the comments pages on Cif. (And, indeed, all the problems in Muslim majority counties are the fault of the West.) But, I wonder, where are his supporters? Why aren’t they commenting and voting?

There were only two commenters with obvious Muslim credentials, one owning up to having a beard, and the other an ex-Muslim, and they both opposed Mr Ramadan.

(2) “Bad news” examples

Individually the examples of “bad news” I gave in my previous comment are trivial but they mount up, and mount up, and they are symtomatic of the attitudes of a large number of Muslims. I feel fully justifed at being worried by them.

Here are some more substantive examples of “bad news” items.

Faisal Siddiqi of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT) criticism of the British media for its obsession with beheadings and other extreme punishments. “They constitute only 10% of sharia.” he says.

Dr Hasan, of the Islamic Sharia Council, views on the desirability of the cutting off of hands and flogging. His views are the relative ease of divorce initiated by a man

Current thinking by some Muslims on the matter of death for apostasy: Muslim chaplain at Harvard toying with idea of executing apostates?

Indonesia’s Aceh to stone adulterers under Islamic law

Iran court upholds death by stoning verdict for two Azeris

Why the evidence of a woman is worth less than that of a man. Islamic Sharia Council

British Muslims are the least integrated in Europe, only one in 10 is integrated. Gallup Co-exist survey.

A Muslim woman may not marry a non-Muslim man.

German Mosques Raided Over Wife-Beating Manual

Muslim prisoners ‘refuse to take part in rehabilitation programmes’

After Attack on Danish Cartoonist The West Is Choked by Fear

Etc.

LibertyPhile

(1) The state of Britain.

I agree Britain has serious social problems. (And BTW, I don’t agree with the Tory slogan that says we have to mend our “broken society”, it’s badly damaged in parts but a good measure is healthy and achieving good things.)

Islam is not the answer.

Tariq Ramadan on Guardian Cif offers Islam (his cue is the MPs’ expenses scandal) in his post last week “Islam’s role in an ethical society” http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/feb/23/ethics-citizenship-islam

His offer has been met with near universal disapproval and disbelief. Of the 4359 votes given to the first 50 comments (there were 281 comments in all) on his post, 4225 (97 percent) disagee with him. See the analysis here. http://libertyphile2.blogspot.com/2010/02/islams-role-in-ethical-society.html

The most popular critical theme is the fact that Islam has not done much good in Muslim majority countries in any part of the world.

Two comments drive home this theme:

“I lived for a while in Jakarta, and I can assure you, in this, the most populous Muslim country in the world, there is more corruption than you can point a stick at.” And:

“The only conclusion I can draw is that it [Ramadan’s post] is a plea to western societies to make a success of Islam its own followers have failed to realise. The problems Ramadan mentions that will be magically cured by Islam are eclipsed by far bigger and more appalling issues prevalent in Islam-majority countries that do indeed follow Islam.”

No doubt you will claim that this overwhelming rebuff of Mr Ramadan’s offer is all due to the Islamophobes who frequent the comments pages on Cif. (And, indeed, all the problems in Muslim majority counties are the fault of the West.) But, I wonder, where are his supporters? Why aren’t they commenting and voting?

There were only two commenters with obvious Muslim credentials, one owning up to having a beard, and the other an ex-Muslim, and they both opposed Mr Ramadan. See here. http://libertyphile2.blogspot.com/2010/02/islams-role-in-ethical-society.html#muslim

(2) “Bad news” examples

Individually the examples of “bad news” I gave in my previous comment are trivial but they mount up, and mount up, and mount up, and they are symtomatic of the attitudes of a large number of Muslims. I feel fully justifed at being worried by them.

Here are some more substantive examples of “bad news” items.

Faisal Siddiqi of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT) criticism of the British media for its obsession with beheadings and other extreme punishments. “They constitute only 10% of sharia.” he says. TimesOnline http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6727174.ece?print=yes&randnum=1151003209000

Dr Hasan, of the Islamic Sharia Council, views on the desirability of the cutting off of hands and flogging: The Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576066/We-want-to-offer-sharia-law-to-Britain.html

Dr Hasan’s views on divorce: http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2009/09/muslim-women-oppose-sharia-councils-in.html

Current thinking by some Muslims on the matter of death for apostasy: Muslim chaplain at Harvard toying with idea of executing apostates? http://thelibertyphile.blogspot.com/2009/04/muslim-chaplain-at-harvard-to-be-toying.html And http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/supreme-court-dismisses-plea-against-death-sentence-for-blasphemy_100182679.html

Indonesia’s Aceh to stone adulterers under Islamic law http://thelibertyphile.blogspot.com/2009/09/indonesias-aceh-to-stone-adulterers.html

Iran court upholds death by stoning verdict for two Azeris
http://televisionwashington.com/floater_article1.aspx?lang=en&t=1&id=17222

Why the evidence of a woman is worth less than that of a man. Islamic Sharia Council http://www.islamic-sharia.org/general/on-the-testimony-of-women-2.html

British Muslims are the least integrated in Europe, only one in 10 is integrated. Gallup Co-exist survey. http://libertyphile2.blogspot.com/2010/01/gallup-coexist-study-2009-headlines-you.html#integration

A Muslim woman may not marry a non-Muslim man.
http://libertyphile2.blogspot.com/2010/01/living-apart-together-british-muslims.html

German Mosques Raided Over Wife-Beating Manual
http://europenews.dk/en/node/29464

Muslim prisoners ‘refuse to take part in rehabilitation programmes’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6966473/Muslim-prisoners-refuse-to-take-part-in-rehabilitation-programmes.html

After Attack on Danish Cartoonist The West Is Choked by Fear
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,669888,00.html

LibertyPhile

“To blame the bad news on fringe groups will not do…”. You’re implying the bodies, governments and interpretations of Islam you’ve listed above are thoroughly Islamic, and all the views discussed above are morally unacceptable. This line of thinking is on the whole ridiculous, and will be taken apart shortly.

In your asking us not to “drag in” issues of foreign policy you show only extreme naivety. These things are intricately linked. Put simply: the more you bomb people, the more reactionary they become, the more conservative ideologies become appealing, the more Niqab wearing literalists roam the streets, the more people like you complain about “Islam”.

Much of the reactionary and hard-line views harbored by people from the Middle East are a result of nothing but Western Policy. In modern times, it was only following the Western backed collapse of Arab nationalism in the 60’s, and the fueling of brutal Arab dictators that people began to seriously take refuge in hard-line “Islam”; in Egypt for example, women began to wear the Niqab, something previously unheard of in the region.

The extremist right wing ideology that led to the 9/11 and other terrorist attacks is being perpetuated by none at the moment as much as the un elected Saudi Royals. And the only reason the Saudi Royals are sitting in their high chairs is Western support. These Royals are loathed by the Saudi masses, and every time there has been an uprising, thousands have been brutalized. This can be said for numerous dictatorships throughout the Middle East, being supported by Western governments, in separate marriages of convenience; with the primary Western goals being oil and geostrategic positioning.

Another example would be that of the Taliban. They are the very same young men who were trained by the Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence and the CIA on the back of US money to make up the “Mujahedeen” during the Cold War. Testament to the one sidedness of the Western media, when practically every young man in Afghanistan was radicalized in the 80’s, the Western press jumped up and down, referring to them as nothing other than “freedom fighters”. They abused women back then. They didn’t believe in Democracy back then. They regularly murdered dissenters back then. Was this reported so? Nope, like I said, they were portrayed as “freedom fighters”. Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were over the moon at what they had become. After the Soviet retreat from Afghanistan, and the collapse of the Soviet Union, these “freedom fighters” were left for dead. It is their hard-line ideologies that have spread to parts of Pakistan and India, and are being imported in to the UK today. And although it’s taken for granted that Western support for the Taliban saw its end around 1991, this is far from the case. From flying in mujahedeen fighters to the Balkans in the mid 90’s to making oil pipe line deals in the late 90’s, effective Western support remained strong for a long while.

“Consider, for example, the man who refuses to stand for the Irish national anthem, the Danish school that has women only parents evenings, the man who wants to bring his second wife to Ireland, the suppression of St Valentine’s day, the refusal to shake hands, and so on and so on.”

Why could you care less about shaking of hands, the practice of Valentine’s Day, or the singing of Anthems? Does it really bother you that much?

Islamically, men and women are advised to avoid unnecessary physical contact with each other before marriage. And there’s nothing in the Qur’an about the Irish national anthem unfortunately, so I think I’ll leave that one to a side.

On a side note, there were two Christian men at work today, who refused to take Quality Street chocolates when I offered them. It clearly wasn’t a one off incident; perhaps you could shed some light on it from a liberal British perspective? I’m deeply troubled. Perhaps it was because of their adherence to the teachings of the Old Testament.

Very quickly, with regard to Pakistani rape- laws, a modern day interpretation of Islam, and Shaykh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi;

There’s nothing wrong with a modern day interpretation of Islam- Shaykh Qaradawi for one, calls for this on a regular basis- the fact that many Muslims have decided not to act upon this is irrelevant. Further, he promotes the wearing of the headscarf but not the Niqaab (face veil). I appreciate that it has all of a sudden become very fashionable for liberals to tell people what to wear, but I’m afraid the whole “Take off that headscarf! You are clearly oppressed!” attitude doesn’t really work for me.

Although I’m not aware of the details of the rape related laws in Pakistan, even if they are as backwards and Saudi-Arabia-like as you claim; this is only a result of a literalist interpretation of the Qur’an. Back in seventh century Arabia, there was no such thing as DNA evidence unfortunately, so the Qur’an kinda didn’t pick up on it.

Bejeweled, it’ll be interesting to flip the coin and send some generalizations “Libertyphile”’s way.

From a generalized perspective, here’s what many Muslims feel it means to be British, and more importantly, FREEEEEE.

Get pissed. Have lots of sex. Roam around half naked. Catch several strains of HIV. Have no community structure. Live for 40years in the same street whilst still not knowing who your neighbor was (at best complaining when they decided to have an extension, and expressing jealous discontent when they buy their new BMW). Be selfish: whine about tax a lot, even though you’re earning £50,000 a year. Cry all the time and wallow in self pity because you’ve failed to pull the girl at reception, whilst never thinking that perhaps there are others who are slightly worse off? And perhaps you have a duty to help them? Ignore the fact that our country’s responsible for the deaths of millions worldwide, and is continuing its plundering. Swear at your parents regularly, until the point at which your dads known only as “oooh ye bastard”. Then when they’re old enough, throw them in to old people’s homes. Employ an “everyone’s in it for themselves” attitude, ensuring of course that you have no real friends. Never give up your seats for old or disabled people on busses and trains; rather, carry on reading “Hello” whilst powdering your nose (or alternatively reading the Sun whilst drooling). Ignore the Britain’s colonialist history and complain when different coloured people arrive at your shores; convince yourself instead, that every Western interventionism throughout history has been an attempt to civilize the terribly backwards Blacks, Arabs, Easterners and Latin Americans. Get pissed some more. Take drugs relentlessly. Spend all your weeks earnings clubbing and drinking every Friday, regularly ending the night in the back of a police van for having a half naked fight with that guy that gave you the dodgy look. Take pictures yourself in hot steamy clubs, pretending to be happy, then plaster them on facebook, hoping that people will notice that you were pretending to be happy, and of couse that you’re “popular”. Regularly wear a couple of inches of makeup, and have aborted at least three fetuses by the time you’re 15 (with fetuses of course not being “real people”, rather, having the value of the products from a trip to the bathroom). Force your children to pay rent as soon as they’re 18: preferably whilst smoking a fag “Jimmy your eighteen now, either pay up or get aaaaout”. Become immersed in celebrity pop culture to the extent that you live in a giant concrete bubble. Aspire to be a pop star or a football player, and when you’ve made it, see to it that you’re worshiped by the masses even though you have the intellect of a fish and the moral compass of a bent plank of wood. Get breast implants, tummy tucks, botox treatment, everything physically possible done to yourself so as to cheat ageing, so that by the time you’re 50 you look like an ailing transvestite; knowing full well that as soon as you look old, you’ll have no place in society, a cast away, confined to an old people’s home where if you’re lucky, your illegitimate children will visit you once every year. Oh and to end on a happy note: die whilst reading the sports section of the Sun and having a shit, following which roughly 3 people attend your funeral so as to add weight to their prospective claiming of your assets.

Liberty! Huraah!

“Generalization” and “isolated incident wise”, I’m afraid you’ll find a lot more atheist/ pagan/ neo-Christian white people living in such a manner than Muslims advocating the slightly backwards interpretations of Islam you put forward earlier. And besides, call me backwards but afraid I’d rather be the one refusing to shake hands or sing the Irish national anthem. Valentine’s Day can take a hike too.

So anyway; tell me, does it not cross your mind that maybe the slant of left wing media critics and dare I say even religious Muslim’s against contemporary British culture may just have a little truth in it? Maybe there’s something a tad bit wrong with your preconceived notions of “liberty”, and dare I say even your society?

I guess not right?

Bejeweled; we’re screwed.

In ten years time it’ll be “backwards” not to let your children have plastic surgery at the age of 12 :’( I can imagine it now, a bold headline in the Sun:

“Barbaric Muslim parents don’t let 12 year old have breast implants to make her look like Katie Price”.

It is true the media in free societies gives more attention to things that go wrong, and controversial things, than things which are praiseworthy.

Christians at this time must be feeling miffed at the coverage of paedophilia in the Catholic Church, and issues concerning women bishops and gays troubling Anglicans.

But the fact is for a considerable period, many years, continuously, in all the Western media (even the Islamophile Guardian, and let me say that again, even in the Islamophile Guardian) the news about Islam and Muslims is overwhelmingly negative. There is incredibly little good news.

This is true even after excluding anything to do with terrorism, and the conflicts in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. [Please do not drag in these issues. I did not mention them and you do not know my views on them either.]

To blame the bad news on fringe groups will not do. The majority of items concern recognised or mainstream (or claiming to be mainstream) Muslim bodies or persons. Look at my list of spoof good news items above.

Does it not cross your mind, at any time, that this news imbalance might be, just might be, the fault of your religion and its followers and the way it is practised especially here in Europe? That the Western media and the vast majority Europeans might have a point.

Libertyphile; I imagine you have several framed pictures of Christopher Hitchens and Samuel Huntington in your bedroom? And perhaps that you have a secret crush on Douglas Murray?

Anyway, I’ll respond to your very typical comment – laced sweeping, largely baseless statements and assertions- when I get some time hopefully.

Very quickly though; yes the “great list” comment
wasn’t serious. I’ll make more of an effort next time when employing sarcasm.

(It saddens me that I’ve felt the need to change my tone in such a manner. While at first, I felt you came across more innocent; your blog kinda sickened me)

What utter rubbish. By any standards, good news is always neglected. Apparently people don’t care. Give them a bit of beard and a bit of drama and supposedly that’s all British people want to read about.

One simple example: Umar Farouq “Christmas bomber” still dominates our newspapers and the rising fear of the Islamic Societies on campus *oh the horror* is in everyone’s ears. But no one mentioned that Islamic Society students – yes, broke, penniless students- managed to squeeze out over a million pounds during charity week across the UK in just the past couple of years. All for orphans around the world. BBC would rather have a piece about 2 gallery assistants in Harrow rather than this. Good news is grossly neglected, and when it comes to Muslims, you can forget about it altogether.

People need to stop living a lie. The Muslim population is HUMONGOUS. Fringe-groups get too much publicity for their own good. By your standards, the thousands upon thousands of troops from our very own soil should depict the condition of British people: illegal war-mongering brutes who enjoy taking down buidings over civilian-heads. I am sure that’s not the case.

Please let’s get over it and make way for the amazing Muslims in our society. You’re no liberty phile. Quite the opposite. Look beyond the obvious please, for your sake and mine.

(1) Thank you for mentioning Kashmir. I should also have mentioned Bangladesh.

(2) Perhaps people are reluctant to employ Muslims because they are (genuinely and rightly) worried about Islam, which brings us back to the “media” issue.

I say again, most of the news about Muslims is negative because that is the kind of news that Muslims themselves create. There is no neglected good news.

Have a look at the entries in the LibertyPhile blog category “Getting Along or Not”. http://thelibertyphile.blogspot.com/search/label/Getting%20Along%20or%20Not?updated-max=2009-12-22T20%3A56%3A00%2B01%3A00&max-results=20

Consider, for example, the man who refuses to stand for the Irish national anthem, the Danish school that has women only parents evenings, the man who wants to bring his second wife to Ireland, the suppression of St Valentine’s day, the refusal to shake hands, and so on and so on.

You’re going to tell me that these are isolated incidents, lone nutters, and I shouldn’t worry about them, or I see them in the wrong light. Well, I’m sorry that’s the way I see them and there are rather too many.

Then have a look at the other categories especially, Freedom of Speech, Islam and Europe, Sharia, Women and Islam.

(3) Has there been a misunderstanding? My list of “good” news is a parody, it is not genuine, or are you parodying my parody?

(4) I disagree almost 100% with your historical analysis.