I never asserted the Palestinians left Palestine in 1948.

Also, Hamas does indeed regularly break ceasefires. As do the Israelis.

I am overall neutral on this issue (in that I am on no-ones side, not that I don’t care) – yes I see the justice of a fair settlement for the Palestinians and why that is absolutely necessary. But also the anti jewish, anti semitic discourse and language that forms much of the debate over I/P sickens me. It is also the approach of much of the Palestinian body politic that is counter productive over the years. Non violent protest in the form of the US Civil Rights Movement would have, in the 70s and 80s brought far more progress but I realise that developments on the ground (that damned wall for one) make that difficult these days.

Hamas may well have been elected but I don’t see another set of elections looming (one man one vote once?) but they are a bunch of far right religious thugs – much like Hezbollah infact.

Having said that I don’t think the Israeli Govt has played fair at all – ref settlements and the near lack of progress through negotiations to date – as you point out so vividly.

So where do you see things going and what would you like to happen?

You were far more reasonable here; although I disagree with the second half. The Saudi’s are racist, but they’re nothing compared to the Israelis.

The Saudi state wasn’t created on the back of genocide or ethnic cleansing. The Saudi’s haven’t started anywhere near the number of wars with their neighbours of a different faith.

The only reason there are a significant number of Arab Muslims in Israel is that a small minority managed to remain following the mass expulsion in 1948. Members of the Israeli Knesset regularly express their regrets regarding the Zionists not having expelled the remaining Arabs earlier (Arabs reproduce like rabbits- not good for Israeli demographics).

The two Arab political parties that had limited activity have also recently been banned from taking part in elections. All in the name of Democracy.

My approach thus far has been entirely political and not religious. I find it impossible to have a “dispassionate” approach when people are facing oppression, regardless of their faith. You’ll find me writing with the same passion when it comes to every crisis; from US exploitation of the Haitians, to the Belgian exploitation of the Congolese. You’ll also find me writing with the same passion when it comes to the vile regimes in the Islamic world; from the Saudi’s to the Pakistani’s.

Having read your comments before, I didn’t expect you to pull out the old holocaust line; as Bejwelled highlighted earlier, it’s an entirely spurious argument. Just because one community suffered immensely, that it should be given damages at the expense of another, is ridiculous. What did the Arabs of Palestine have to do with the Holocaust?

As I explained earlier, the whole “historical Jewish land” argument is also ridiculous. North America is the historic Native American land. Greater Australia is the historic Aboriginal land. If the Book of Joshua is to believed, then it means that justification for a Jewish homeland is based on land taken by war 3,300 years ago and lost by war 2600 years ago. You don’t have a point here. Furthermore you completely ignored large chunks of my earlier response;

“Barely 10% of Jews living today have any historic link to the region, and even if this figure is larger, or that the twelve tribes story is correct; that was well over two thousand years ago! The Mexicans and Native Americans have more of a right to re claim North America. In fact screw it, we ALL may as well re claim Africa, as scientists believe it is where mankind originated from.”

If I may add to this; according to the writings of H.G. Wells and MANY others, the majority of Jews living today are the descendents of a Turkish tribe referred to as the Khazars, who converted to Judaism between 620-740AD, with no genetic connection to the land whatsoever. Today, the majority (some figures are put this high as 95%) of Jews are of the Ashkenazi tribe, descendents of the Khazars.

Furthermore, let me repeat; the Jews left Palestine 500 years BEFORE the Muslims took over. And they only began to return because the Muslims INVITED them.

Going by your argument of historical links… there is ample evidence to suggest non- Jewish semites lived in the region for centuries (it’s acknowledged in the Bible for a start). Would their descendents, whoever they are, have a valid argument if they wished to reclaim Israel?

Moving on to your calling Likud & Hamas equally childish. It’s not Hamas that continually breaks ceasefires. Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza. After its election, Israel, the EU and the US saw to it that it that Gaza was economically strangled; collective punishment for the people’s voting for the wrong party. Hamas’s rockets have killed fewer than 10 people in the past 10years. Contrast this to Israel’s doings; having killed over 7,000 Palestinians in the same time period, with all manner of weaponry; laser guided missiles, F16’s, helicopter gunships and bombs. The Palestinians have a right to armed struggle.

Although there are valid arguments for and against violent resistance, the often childishness of Hamas cannot be compared to that of Likud. During Olmerts stay in power, the Fatah government engaged in over 200 talks with the Israelis. The outcome was zilch. Illegal settlements expanded, more territory was annexed, more Palestinian families were evicted from their homes, more prisoners were held without charge in Israeli dungeons, and so on. Ironically, the only negotiations on whose results people regularly wait eagerly, are those Hamas has with Israel; prisoner exchanges and so on. There is a very famous saying that you will hear the Palestinians, especially the Gazans, use a lot: “its better to die standing than to live on your knees”.

Your assertion that the Palestinians “left” Palestine in 1948 is, again, ridiculous. The only link their being expelled from the region has to the Ottoman Empire, is that with the Empires collapse, Muslims weren’t in a position to fight Western Imperial powers. The Palestinians were ethnically cleansed; this is admitted by the top most Israeli scholars on the issue, i.e. Zionists such as Benny Morris, and former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Benami. I advise you to read “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”, by Ilan Pappe, an Israeli professor who teaches at Exeter University.

Coming back to the expulsion of Jews from some Arab lands; it was the direct result of the creation of the Zionist state. In modern day terms, we had a situation similar to what we saw in the former Rhodesia, South Africa and Yugoslavia; whenever there is one ethnic minority ruling over a majority of another ethnicity, hostilities regularly ensue. Although often, the blame lies with both sides, we must ask who the initial aggressor was.

Here are a few excerpts from the findings of a British Royal commission chaired by Lord William Peel in 1936, alongside a prior inquiry headed by Sir Thomas Haycraft; both aimed to ascertain the causes of the turmoil in the region;

“the root of the trouble… was the Arab fear of a steady increase of Jewish immigration, which would ultimately tend to their political and economic subjection.”

“There can be no doubt that racial animosity on the part of the Arabs, consequent upon the disappointment of their political and national aspoirations and fear for their economic future, was the fundamental cause”.

Referring to Arab-Jewish hostilities, the commission’s report stated they were a result of “first, the desire of Arab for national independence; secondly, their antagonism to the establishment of the Jewish “national home” in Palestine, quickened by their fear of Jewish domination”.

More importantly, it went on to state;

“Nor is the conflict in its essence an interracial conflict, arising from any old instinctive antipathy of Arabs towards Jews. There was little or no friction… between Arab and Jew in the rest of the Aarab world until the strife in Palestine engenderd it. And there has been precisely the same political trouble in Iraq, Syria and Egypt- agitation, rebellion and bloodshed- where there are no “National Homes”….. “THAT IS WHY IT IS DIFFICULT TO BE AN ARAB PATRIOT AND NOT TO HATE THE JEWS”.

Just to prevent any childishness on part of any other contributors; these aren’t my words. Look up the above stated sources for yourself. And besides, I don’t hate the Jews. Far from it, I hate Zionists

In summary, Common Humanist; I think you’re doing what too many pseudo historians do. You’re trying far too hard to come across as neutral. Although I think you’re trying to be fair; you’ve erred in convincing yourself that both sides are equally to blame when it simply isn’t the case. I’ll finish in the words of the late Howard Zinn; “you can’t be neutral on a moving train”.

My view is skewed because I look at the situation from a position of – ‘we are where we are?’ Hardly.

Israel isn’t going anywhere. Deal with it.

To Israel supporters – give the Palestinians the justice they deserve. They aren’t going away either.

That’s my position.

BTW Israel isn’t a Jewish Only State. 25% of its citizens are Arab Muslims and Christians. Unlike say, Saudi Arabia, which is a racist state through its banning of people of the Jewish faith from its territory.

Anyways, back to I/P, comprehensive deals are going to have to be done sooner or later – probably along the lines of the one I outlined earlier.

And then the rest of the world can relax somewhat.

We might as well give back England to the Ancient Romans.

And, Europe had no right to alleviate its guilt at the expense of thousands and thousands of people.

Right of return is all good and jolly, but there are peaceful ways of co-habiting without creating an apartheid state with jewish-only state, roads and settlements. Something went seriously wrong right from the establishment of Israel, (perhaps the notion that you can forcefully remove a bunch of people and draw a couple of borders) – as such, peace is an unachievable cry today.

“So no more settlements in the WB? Agreed? No more silly rocket attacks into Israel ”

It’s not a little game of tit for tat, and certainly not a proportionate game. You might as well be comparing the tragedy of Haiti with Michael Jackson’s death. Your perception of levels of proportion, blame, and the Palestinian situation are seriously skewed.

It is late and my mint tea is wearing off (addiction picked up in Morocco – my garden smells fantastic!!)

TCH

I appreciate your response, I come at this issue as a dispassionate historian and and non believer so tend to avoid over emotive language.

Anyway, to suggest that most of the expulsion of Jews from majority Muslim states in the late 40s and early 50s is rather stretching the reality of events on the ground. Particularly given the atmosphere in the ME ’47 to ’56.

A perculier phenomenon is the inability of faith groups to to admit that they, like all other humans, are capable of both beauty and horror in equal measure? Interesting and disturbing but not unique to the islamic world. However, gievn the lack of basic freedoms through much of it that approach is worryingly atypical.

Therefore you can add Iraq, Iran and Tunisia to your list. It should also be noted that fragments of those Jewish populations did remain. But still, the net movements of populations displaced jews outweighs that of Palestinian Arabs by a small amount but that is neither here nor there. Neither crime is justified.

It is not a question of ‘make do’, but what is achievable. Israel (pre 67 borders) isn’t and shouldn’t be going anywhere. That said, the Israelis IMHO should pay for a strong Palestinian State based on the WB and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital. For that both the Israeli and Palestinian Rights (as typified by the equally childish Likud and Hamas parties) have to grow up and do a deal that gets most of what each other wants.

This is how human cultures have co-existed for millennia and neither muslims or jews are special and can’t escape that basic reality.

Time for some adulthood perhaps? So no more settlements in the WB? Agreed? No more silly rocket attacks into Israel proper? Agreed? No more Greater Israel or Hamas Charter perchance???

And then we can all progress and the Levant can stop holding the rest of the world at five to midnight on the armageddon clock!

In terms of Right of Return – Israel affords this because it is the historical jewish homeland and after the holocaust this had added impetus. The Palestinian Arabs who left in 48 have little such power because of the fractured post ottoman potitical situation between arab polities (common islamic heritage having very little to do with it, as is ever the case in the fertile crescent, competing elites will always compete (To which can be added the UKs caving to French Colonial demands and the siding of the Palestinian Arab elite with the Axis in WW2 with the net result is that the Palestinian Arabs were always onto a loser).

Ironically the UN offered land division post WW2, had it been taken up by said Arab elite, would have results today in a very wealthy and powerful Levant made up of Israel, the Palestinian Republic and Lebanon.

Immature polities on both sides prevented that from happening and prevent it still, nigh on 65 years later.

“The simple truth is, if there is one state [including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza] it will have to be either binational or undemocratic … The lack of a solution to the problem of border demarcation within the historic Land of Israel – and not an Iranian bomb – is the most serious threat to Israel’s future.”

To think settlers, the most influential group in Israel would ever accept Palestinians living as equal citizens in the land they apparently claim as ‘God-given’, is well impossible basically. In reality, they don’t answer to the state of Israel, they answer only to their Rabbis (hence why the Israeli Supreme Court is basically pointless). One must identify the problem, which is Israel, and any solution in the future, sad as I am (not) to say it, will see military force deal the hand of justice Israel has escaped for far, far too long.

Dan. You claim the Arab states started the ’67 war. Not quite. It was an unjustified preemptive attack on Israel’s part. And besides, from an international law perspective, irrespective of who the aggressor is, it is illegal to acquire land by means of war. Even if your dreamt up story of the Arabs having started the ’67 war was true, Israel would still have no justification for taking over the West Bank, the Golan Heights, Eastern Jerusalem or the Sinai. (An interesting fact not many people know a is that the Israeli’s were busy planning for huge settlements in the Sinai prior to an American mediated deal made with the Egyptians in the 70’s, handing the land back).

The idea that Israel no longer occupies Gaza is laughable. It has become the world’s largest open air prison. Over 50% of people don’t have jobs. The fishing industry has completely collapsed due to Israeli policy, forcing Palestinian fishermen to remain within 3miles of the Gazan coast line (British gas + Gazan offshore gas deposits = big bucks for Israel). John Hopkins University confirmed that 20% of children in Gaza are either chronically or acutely malnourished. Israel isn’t even allowing concrete in to let the Gazan’s rebuild their broken homes, (concrete of course being a key ingredient to bomb manufacture). With regard to the “Israel withdrew but what did they get in return?” argument; Israel made no concessions in moving its colonies out of Gaza as they were illegal in the first place. Furthermore, the move occurred simultaneously with massive settlement expansion in the West Bank; room was made for an extra 13,000 settlers to be precise, adding to the ~300,000 settlers already in position, illegally.

Common Humanist; those Jews that were expelled
from Arab countries 60 years ago were only expelled as a result of the creation of Israel on the back of ethnic cleansing. Also, what many claim was the forceful expulsion of Jews from Arab countries was in fact voluntary movement; most of those who left Arab nations in fact found a “better life” in what is now Israel. But yes, I won’t deny it; in Egypt and Libya (primarily), many Jews were forcefully removed; unfair, but somewhat understandable considering what was happening in Palestine. It’s no secret that the Arabs were enraged following the handover of large parts of historic Palestine by British Imperialists to the Jewish minority. It is important to remember that before the signing of the Balfour declaration in 1917 and the subsequent creation of Israel in 1948, Jews and Muslims coexisted on the whole peacefully for over a thousand years (although Zionists argue this is a myth, the Geneza documents found in Egypt are testament to the peaceful coexistence argument). Muslims protected the Jewish people during the Crusades, in Moorish Spain, and in various other regions throughout history. Jews in fact fought alongside Muslims against the crusaders to protect Jerusalem.

If I may go off on a tangent, the whole “who was there first” argument many raise is ridiculous. The Jews had left the region 500years before the Muslim’s came to reside in Palestine following a bloodless take over from the Byzantines in 630. It was in fact the Muslim rulers who persuaded the Jews to come back to the region, practice their religion and what not. This was quite a feat at the time. We know what happened when the Jews tried to openly practice their religion under Roman and Byzantine rule (hint; the Western Wall).

Coming back to your points Common Humanist; I realize you argument is far more fair and balanced than Dan’s (I believe you’re a reasonable person), but why should the Palestinians have to make do with reparations? There are now 6million Palestinian refugees living on the outskirts of what was once their homeland. Why is it that Jews are afforded a “right of return” by the state of Israel, yet the Palestinians aren’t? Is it not grossly unfair that Zionists with no historic link to the region are encouraged to move to Israel, with pay packages and housing as enticement, yet those Arabs who remember growing up there have no such opportunity? Barely 10% of Jews living today have any historic link to the region, and even if this figure is larger, or that the twelve tribes story is correct; that was well over two thousand years ago! The Mexicans and Native Americans have more of a right to re claim North America. In fact screw it, we ALL may as well re claim Africa, as scientists believe it is where mankind originated from.